So...is this award-winning teacher onto something?
https://www.moultrienews.com/opinion/teacher-to-parent---positive-reinforcement-doesn-t-work/article_cf5c0206-2522-11e7-98ed-b3a9b0e7d4f6.html?utm_medium=social
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
-
LEGO Americana Roadshow: Building Across America I just checked out this traveling exhibition from LEGO and was quite impressed. The scale ... -
Merry Christmas, everyone!
-
When we let politics trump science, people are needlessly put in harm's way. http://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/self-censoring-fears...
He makes a pretty compelling case; I didn't see anything there that I'd disagree with, and I loved the updated "you kids get off my lawn" story. What people want (and younger kids in particular need) are clear guidelines about what's expected of them, what's discouraged, and what they can expect for either.
ReplyDeleteI would think there's a difference between encouraging your children to grow / become independent thinkers / accept increasing responsibilities and 'positive reinforcement' for the sake of warm fuzzies.
ReplyDeleteAdults understand this through the standard corporate five-point job review. Everyone is 'average,' and very few people 'excel,' because the company has a finger on the scale. Instead, you're beaten over the head with your alleged shortcomings, and asked how you intend to improve / present a plan of action for that improvement.
One of the biggest problems with punishments is that the lesson that too often gets learned isn't "actions have consequences," it's that "getting caught has consequences." Lack of positive reinforcement/feedback is actually a significant factor of job dissatisfaction. Just because employers tend to act a certain way doesn't mean it's right or good.
ReplyDeleteAnd is school even supposed to be teaching students how the real world works? Or is it a 12 year job/college prep institution? Or a place of learning for learning's sake? Differing answers are likely to require differing reactions to student behaviors.
For that matter, the whole self-esteem movement is Randist BS.
ReplyDeleteI hope that parent also scolded the kid, but I'm betting they didn't.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, negative reinforcement alone doesn't work in the long run either. What does is what Bob Lai said. Encouraging kids to grow. Intrinsic motivation, you know?
ReplyDeleteIt is my personal and professional experience over three careers that constructive criticism is an oxymoron. My definition of leadership continues to be inspiring others to accept your destination situation as their dream and effectively coaching them in achieving their dream. It works for parents, Submarine Officers, project managers and wealth management advisors.
ReplyDeleteAs usual, it must be balanced. Observe nature instead of always coming with extreme intellectual theories. Watch a mother cat with kittens.
ReplyDeleteIf your 3 years old child climbs the window on the first floor, you have reasons to shout to him/her and even gives a small spank. He/she will remember. Negative reinforcement for negative actions.
If he/she draws a beautiful drawing or invent a song or whatever, compliment him/her. And at the end of the day, before sleeping, let's talk about what happened today (I am pretty sure mother cats have something similar).
Olivier Malinur When you hit a child, they learn only that violence is acceptable in society. Fear is a weak motivator and the first resort of weak leaders, whether a parent, boss or politician. What would love do?
ReplyDeleteIn spite of learning well, I am a terrible student. I was in despair till Mr. Howatt, my seventh grade math teacher, recognized that my non compliance indicated extreme interest. (I was sketching ellipses when we were learning about circles.) I am still running on the boost he gave me in 1963.
ReplyDeleteI wish that I could say the same about other teachers. My 10th grade math teacher ejected me from the computer club because my first program was too advanced. He thought that I should read to numbers, add them, and print their sum. I thought I should apply the trapezoidal rule to find the area of the unit circle.
Go figure.
Let's be clear about what's being discussed, here. The original article is about rewarding compliance. In other words, bribing children for following the rules. It is the "carrot" approach to management and generally doesn't work all that well over the long term.
ReplyDeleteBut I agree that sticks alone aren't ideal either, for lots of reasons.
The conclusion, I think, is to teach kids how to recognize what is the best possible outcome in any given situation and to then work towards that primarily, if not solely, for the intrinsic benefits associated with that outcome.
If you haven't come across Ross Greene's work in this field, it's worth checking out. He doesn't punish, but he doesn't reward, either. Long term effectiveness is paramount, and his method works. theatlantic.com - Ross Greene Identifies Environmental Disciplining Technique - The Atlantic
ReplyDeleteCraig Froehle Is the goal compliance or performance? Rules and laws define compliance and consequences, but no manager or parent ever maximized performance with negative criticism. A negatively reinforced personal or professional environment diminishes self-worth and potential. It is the primary reason people leave school early or fire their boss. It is human nature to go to extreme effort to repeatedly receive positive recognition from peers and superiors, something I learned very early in my Submarine career and later reinforced in civilian management. If you want to attract and retain talent, you have to sustain an environment that focuses on positive reinforcement. Negative behavior and performance will diminish on its own because people will do whatever it takes to repeatedly achieve recognition and reward. Ask yourself, what motivates people to leave their loved ones to submerge themselves in a sewer pipe year after year for months at a time? I assure you, it is not a negative kick in the ass management style.
ReplyDeleteOlivier Malinur We can always count on you to endorse child abuse.
ReplyDeletenospank.net - Project NoSpank
Steve S and Mac Baird, I already had lengthy discussion about this. Your culture dislikes it, we see the result with the behaviour of your kids in north America, not sure you are very qualified to give opinion. Read about the education "French style" which has attracted a renewed interest from USA. BTW, a small spank is not child abuse. As I said from the beginning, I am for both stick and carrots but intelligently used. Complimenting a child permanently or punishing him permanently is stupid. Sometimes, you can even say nothing and let them learn by themselves.
ReplyDeleteThis last point is key. Let's enlarge the debate. I have been always wondering if this "management by objective" is so efficient. I have a typical example: one guy has the objective of having 40% minimum of female engineers. He gets a bonus when he reached this. He was a stupid chauvinist macho. You know what he did ? He recruited up to 40% women and then recruited only men. Generally, the carrots system is making good stupid soldiers, following blindly objectives. Another example, one former colleague has the objective of selling x$ to a major client. He was spending his time with them to the point of making them irritated. Meanwhile, as you can see, I didn't give a damn about objectives. I decided to focus rather in a new geographical area with totally unrelated clients. The guy told me "I leave you with your imaginary clients". 4 months later, we concluded a 200,000$ sale with the figment of my imagination. And this client is now the most important of the whole region !
Let's the children a bit free, sometime even to get bored. Or fall from the tree.
They learn.
Human are not AI, especially children. They learn fast, no need of big data.
As a young child I was more terrified of my grandmothers' scoldings than of my uncle's strap (and he could give a pretty good scolding too, so didn't often have to use the strap, though my cousins assured me he could, would, and had). I always learned something positive from my grandmothers.
ReplyDeleteWhat has always frustrated me was punishment without apparent purpose that included some clearly evident positive goal. I think I learned this most concretely in fourth grade when I was framed for writing on the wall, then made to write lines on the board during recess. I knew I couldn't argue my innocence as I had no evidence nor any idea who had really done it, but what I truly detested most was this pointless exercise that did nothing to improve me in any way and seemed only meant to embarrass me in front of my peers (and in retrospect perhaps make them fearful) -- it only made me resentful and not even my writing could improve.
Greg A. Woods Punishment teaches you to avoid punishment. Reward teaches you to seek reward. The article suggests that both of these are bad ideas. Instead of trying to motivate behavior, we should enable it by removing the blockages.
ReplyDeleteOlivier Malinur How is it acceptable to use physical violence against children and not your spouse (assuming you do not beat your spouse when she displeases you) or other adults?
ReplyDeleteMac Baird I once offered to cure him of his child abuse habit using negative reinforcement. He seemed unwilling, for some odd reason.
ReplyDeleteMac Baird So you believe that a 4-year-old has the same mental capacity as the average adult to understand and internalize corrective criticism? Calmly explaining the rationale behind something to a toddler doesn't always work, especially if you want to make damned sure the kid doesn't do it again starting immediately (e.g., running into the street). Not that spanking should be anyone's first reaction, but arguing that it's "abuse" in every case is just absurd.
ReplyDeleteWe don't spank adults when they break the rules, we fine them (because they value money...little kids don't) and/or we put them in jail (I hope you're not suggesting that kids should be imprisoned for their infractions). Older kids are given time-outs or have other privileges restricted (because they've begun to value their autonomy, something little kids don't fully comprehend). Different developmental stages require different approaches to correcting harmful behavior. That that isn't self-evident for some people amazes me.
As to the question of whether we're seeking "compliance or performance," maybe the problem is that we too often conflate the two?
ReplyDeleteOur schools are structured so that "good kids" are compliant kids. Our law enforcement is structured so that "good citizens" are compliant citizens. Our workplaces are structured so that "good employees" are compliant employees. Our parenting models say that "good kids" are compliant kids. Even a lot of the religious right would call a "good wife" a compliant wife, and a good parishioner a compliant one. Despite all our talk of freedom and individuality, compliance with authority is a highly esteemed American ideal.
I and a lot of my friends excelled in school, at work, and in relationships with family -- but are also ... not the most respectful people in the world of authority. I can say from a great deal of personal experience and observation: high-performing, productive, contributing, valuable people are enthusiastically punished every day for nothing more than refusing to bend the knee to some jerkoff in a fancy costume.
Craig Froehle Physical violence against a child is the least effective teaching method, regardless of the age of the child. Leading by example and demonstration is the most effective method, reinforced with reward and recognition. Small children are very aware of the behavior and actions of their parents around dangerous things. What you say and do with your children around potential danger will be internalized even if they may not understand it. Children learn to fear the things their parents fear very quickly, as a natural survival instinct. Beyond that, it is the parent's responsibility to protect them from dangerous situations or placing barriers to dangerous situations. When you hit a child, the child only understands that you hit them out of anger. They do not understand why you were angry, until much older. Be a leader, not a punisher. Don't criticize the child for something they do not comprehend, but be a teacher and inspire them to accept your destination situation as their dream and effectively coach them in achieving their dream. And, always talk to your children about what you are thinking. Do not assume they can read your mind.
ReplyDeleteCraig Froehle There is literally no stage at which a child should be spanked.
ReplyDeleteMac Baird said: "Physical violence against a child is the least effective teaching method, regardless of the age of the child."
ReplyDeleteDemonstrably untrue. Distance-learning lectures work less well on toddlers in teaching them, for example, to not chew on extension cords. That said, calling a swat on the butt "physical violence" is the kind of disingenuous hyperbole that destroys conversations.
"Leading by example and demonstration is the most effective method, reinforced with reward and recognition."
Sure. But that by itself doesn't work in every situation and with every child.
"Children learn to fear the things their parents fear very quickly, as a natural survival instinct."
I don't fear the things a toddler should, so expecting a toddler to somehow pick up on my perceived fears as if by magic doesn't make much sense even if they could do that.
"When you hit a child, the child only understands that you hit them out of anger."
That's fine. I used to use a swat on the butt with my kids to let them know I was really upset, more than what tone and look alone could convey, and to get their undivided attention.
"They do not understand why you were angry, until much older."
My kids certainly did.
"Be a leader, not a punisher."
Ha...seriously? Did you get that off one of those demotivational posters? ;-)
"Don't criticize the child for something they do not comprehend,"
You seem to be not comprehending what I'm talking about or making up scenarios in your head to justify your position.
"but be a teacher and inspire them to accept your destination situation as their dream and effectively coach them in achieving their dream."
What are you talking about Did you even ever take care of a toddler? Coaching? Dreams? I don't even.
"And, always talk to your children about what you are thinking. Do not assume they can read your mind."
Yep, I explain. And then I remind. And then I remind again. And then I punish. And then, failing all that, a swat on the butt might happen just to get them to realize I'm totally, inescapably serious.
I haven't spanked my kids since they were 5 or 6 because they started being old enough to deal with situations intellectually. And even then, it was quite mild compared to what kids experienced when I was that age.
Craig Froehle here's how I taught my son that he had to be careful crossing the street when he was two. I took him out to the driveway, where we had the following conversation:
ReplyDeleteFather: There's our car, right?
Son: Right!
F: We ride in it, right?
S: Right!
F: OK, now I want you to try something for me.
I lead him to the center of the front bumper.
F: OK, this is the front of the car.
S: Yes.
F: Take hold of the bumper
He took hold of the bumper.
F: OK, now pick it up.
Blank stare from Son.
F: It's OK, son. You can't hurt it. Go on, pick up the car.
Son does his best, and the car does not move.
Son: I can't Daddy. It's too heavy!
Father: I know, Son. I can't pick it up, either. It's way too heavy. Now, let's talk about cars. What's bigger, us or the car?
Son: The car!
Father: Right. Who goes faster, us or the car.
Son: The car.
Father: OK, Son, cars are bigger than us, and they go much faster than us. Sounds like we need to be careful around cars, right?
Son: Yeah!
... and that was that. Job done.
Craig Froehle Good luck unteaching your children to use physical violence on others when they are older.
ReplyDeleteMac, maybe we should sometimes remember that we're just animals, a bit more intellectual than most, but just animals. Then we might observe how animals especially those somewhat like us (i.e. the mammals), learn from their parents and their siblings. Sure we might aspire to be less violent than animals sometimes appear (in our minds) to be, but for now we really are just fooling ourselves (until, and unless, we can actually do away with, permanently, those submarines, and fighters and bombs, and all the other many offensive weapons we are often all too proud of). We do, in fact, learn things in very much the same way as other animals do, especially at a younger age before we develop our intellectual skills.
ReplyDeleteMac Baird Sometimes physical violence against others isn't just justified, it's necessary. Learning when it is and how to execute it can be the difference between life and death, ours and/or others'. Or did you not realize any of that while you were serving in the military on a boat capable of killing hundreds of millions of people?
ReplyDeleteCraig Froehle Let's not confuse violence in the service of defense with violence as a way to bully people -- especially children -- into obedience. Haven't we learned anything from the negative example of the Cobra Kai dojo?
ReplyDeleteSteve S If you think our "national defense" is in no way associated with "bullying people into obedience," I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. That said, you're making the same mistake he does in assuming a small child has the same ability to comprehend and internalize feedback that an adult does. They don't, but that may be news to anyone here who doesn't have kids.
ReplyDeleteCraig Froehle All the more reason not to hit them. They're not going to connect the pain and humiliation to anything that they did wrong; they will correctly recognize it as your defect and appropriately downgrade their estimation of you.
ReplyDeleteSteve S Craig Froehle My children and my grandchildren have been parented without spanking with no ill effects. The purpose of the Department of Defense is defense, and the purpose of the Fleet Ballistic Missile Program continues to be deterrence with a 100% success record. All training in the military is conducted without physical disciplinary assault of junior members by seniors. Society tells boys that it is not OK to hit girls for any reason. Assault is a crime in every State, yet some people seem to think it is OK to physically assault children rather than use parenting skills. Your argument for spanking lacks merit and questions your education and ability as a teacher. Spanking children because it is what you were taught as a child is a weak excuse. The overwhelming weight of current academic study on the subject is that spanking is unnecessary, ineffective and negatively damages the development of the child and relationship to the parent. In virtually all other species, where "shared" parenting exists, physical assault of the very young does not occur. Why should humanity be different?
ReplyDeleteI don't see a great deal of difference between children and dogs. There is a huge difference in the way different breeds are trained. Contrast a lab and a sheltie. Huge difference. I expect children will be found to be a non-uniform organism. All this sturm und drang over "violence" is likely not productive except in the case of actual abuse. If a tactic is not productive, you should change your approach. That's what makes up a good part of effective teaching.
ReplyDeleteMac Baird And my kids and I have been parented with spanking with no ill effects. See? Your anecdote vs. my anecdote...nobody wins. It comes down to opinion and yours differs from mine. I'm not suggesting you should spank kids or grandkids, but I resent you suggesting that you know how to parent my kids better than I do or that I'm somehow a flawed human being because my parents used spanking occasionally. I'm done here.
ReplyDeleteCraig Froehle Ah, the irony. The fact that you think it's ok to hit defenseless children is itself a consequence of the damage done to you when you were hit as a child.
ReplyDeleteCraig Froehle Unless you are willing to just ignore the findings of several university studies and claim you know a lot more than the experts on the subject, you might want to review the following:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131211103958.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090924231749.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131122103621.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080228220451.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140128153952.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140316210945.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051114110820.htm
There are dozens more studies, but unless you spank your children for your enjoyment, you are not helping them, as discussed in the last link below. If you don't want to believe the science, I feel sorry for your children.
sciencedaily.com - www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160425143106.htm
Mac Baird You know, I've actually read quite a few published papers on the topic and I've found very few to be high-quality research (and yes, I'm qualified to judge that as I do it professionally every day). For example, in one of the papers you cited, it made a ridiculous measurement decision:
ReplyDelete" For this study, analyses focused on three physical discipline strategies (spank or slap, grab or shake, beat up) that are of particular conceptual relevance to the hypotheses. The three items were averaged to create scales reflecting mothers' use of physical discipline" (emphasis mine)
Really? "Beating up" a child is the same as spanking or grabbing one?
An absolutely shameful measurement decision. I'm embarrassed this paper made its way into the scientific literature.
Just because a study is published doesn't mean it's right.
And your comment about feeling sorry for my children is out of bounds.
Steve S How old are your children?
ReplyDelete